there are people who look at joe biden and say, listen, he really identifies with middle class folks. he can be gaffe prone, but he also can be good. his speech at the democratic convention was arguably very good. setting the table for that debate, we'll have plenty of days to talk about it, but bouncing off that sound bite? >> he is good. that's not the point. the point is that if you were to string together a couple months worth of his comments such as the middle class has been buried under the obama administration, i mean, these are things that i think other people if they said would paint a very frightening picture to people of the administration. but he is allowed to continue to do this. so the set-up is, we go in with the lowest of lowest of lowest of expectations of him, expecting him to say even crazy things, or things that are factually not true. and so it's going to be very difficult for, i think -- it will be difficult for anyone to say he has done something that crossed some line that he shouldn't cross. >> bret: i want to end on this one points, we didn't cover it. the co